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Author Topic: Warning!This could be you!  (Read 12528 times)

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Offline Bubblez

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Warning!This could be you!
« on: August 26, 2010, 01:33:26 PM »
Following a defended hearing at the North Shore District Court on 19 March 2010, Mr Peter Vandenberg, a director of Atlas Plumbing Limited, was convicted of two offences against the Act.
The offences related to causing an apprentice plumber to perform unauthorised prescribed electrical work during the installation of a hot water cylinder and causing work to be done on that hot water cylinder in a manner that was dangerous to life.
Mr Vandenberg was fined a total of $3,500 and ordered to pay Court costs of $260 and solicitor’s fees of $350.

Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/ask-plumbers-trade/43/warningthis-could-be-you/488/

Offline Edbear

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2010, 02:12:24 PM »
Good post and welcome to plumbers.co.nz Bubblez!  ;D

This is something all plumbers and gasfitters need to be very conscious of. The apprentice may have done this work many times or never before, but it is when something goes wrong as it is bound to from time to time, that the consequences are serious.

They could have lost their licence or injury or even death could have occured. We don't know the full details of course but it only takes one mistake and your Public Liability Cover is not going to apply if you have done something you are not qualified to do or have done something illegal.
I only know enough to know I don't know enough of what I need to know enough of...

Offline Bubblez

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2010, 02:20:40 PM »
Latest from the EWRB on what is required for electrical work.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2010, 05:40:48 PM »
Always, always, always call in an electrician.  This is a legitimate cost to the customer - who are we really doing the favour for if we try and do someone else's job/trade.  We work in closely with an electrical company and use them for everything electrical, despite some of our guys having limited electrical tickets.  The customer is informed an electrician is required and that we can organise it, and then it is added to our bill.  In the case of quotes we again always use a registered electrician for prescribed electrical work.  Many on these forums moan about unlicensed people doing our work - well we are no different if we try and do work that the sparky should.  I don't know the guy mentioned in this story, but it is interesting he got the apprentice to do it and didn't do it himself.  Maybe he figured the apprentice was more expendable.   It's just not a good look for plumbers and gasfitters to be trying to do the sparky's job!
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline Thunderhead

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2010, 05:59:36 PM »
a quick question what does one do when called to a change of element job as the owner will almost always call a plumber?...

Offline Edbear

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2010, 06:47:21 PM »
I may be wrong but as far as I'm aware, an owner can change the element themselves if they wish. I recommend they call an electrician to do so when I receive inquiries about this, purely because of the risk that someone will do it wrong and electrocute themselves or short something out.  ::)

Offline robbo

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2010, 10:20:11 AM »
hi guys, i suspect that this guy was not capable to do what he told his apprentice to do. I don`t think that the conviction will bother him too much, the fine was tiny in comparison to what he is spending on other items, his plumbing vehicle is a Bentley worth $360000, i don`t know what you can do with these guys, he will probably do the same thing again, he obviously does not care, have a look at this insert,cheers

Offline peasea

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2010, 03:11:00 PM »
I find having this licence very handy , I make sure I stay within my limits though , and always call an electrician when the wiring looks suspect , the course is expensive to do , but you learn a lot of interesting stuff, I am able to check to see if it is the element  or thermostat rather than just replace these through ignorance ,

Why not make a bit extra from the job if you can , and qualified to , the customer is happy if they can deal with one trades person

Offline Edbear

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2010, 09:19:46 PM »
hi guys, i suspect that this guy was not capable to do what he told his apprentice to do. I don`t think that the conviction will bother him too much, the fine was tiny in comparison to what he is spending on other items, his plumbing vehicle is a Bentley worth $360000, i don`t know what you can do with these guys, he will probably do the same thing again, he obviously does not care, have a look at this insert,cheers

Obviously the fine won't bother him too much, but if they take his licence away, where's he going to take his Bentley...?

Offline Edbear

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2010, 09:27:29 PM »
I find having this licence very handy , I make sure I stay within my limits though , and always call an electrician when the wiring looks suspect , the course is expensive to do , but you learn a lot of interesting stuff, I am able to check to see if it is the element  or thermostat rather than just replace these through ignorance ,

Why not make a bit extra from the job if you can , and qualified to , the customer is happy if they can deal with one trades person

That's a valid point. Customers like to keep things simple and if they can deal with one person who will sort everything out for them they're much happier. The limited electrical licence can be helpful, though I know plumbers who have an arrangement with an electrician who charges them a discounted service and the plumber simply adds the cost onto their bill as an item charge.

Offline robbo

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2010, 09:42:23 PM »
hi guys/ed, i don`t think this guy has a licence!

Offline Edbear

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2010, 11:50:13 AM »
hi guys/ed, i don`t think this guy has a licence!

You mean the limited electrical? Probably not and obviously definitely not a full electrical. Doesn't matter who he is or how rich, both his Plumbing Licence and his Public Liability Insurance can be invalidated for these breaches.

Tradesmen need to consider the consequences if something goes wrong ahead of the convenience or cost of taking shortcuts. Customers can sometimes put pressure on as far as time goes, and I feel sorry for apprentices who may be intimidated by their bosses to do work they know they shouldn't.

Offline Thunderhead

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 02:55:07 AM »
cheers for the advice guys...i might look into getting a limited license to enable me to do this job within the bounds of the law...funny though i was talking to a sparky the other day about this and he says he wont do it because of the risk of cylinder implosion at drain down stage as he isnt a plumber...etc etc and my boss wont touch em cus of the electrical side of things...i think its quite stupid that we in the apprentiship stage arnt tought this side of it and the govt making an offical nzqa only on element change over...at tech during the gas side of things we are taught about servicing of infinity units which has electrical components that need to be serviced...does anyone know if one needs an limited electrical license to legaly service these gas appliances as a sparky rearly is not trained on gas theroy???but it involves replacing electrical componets??? :o

Offline robbo

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 10:15:18 AM »
hi guys, i know sparkies that replace the elements after draining the cylinder. myself i don`t mind turning the power off,and diconnecting the wires to the element then after replacing the element i get a sparkie to re-connect, does anyone think that this method is wrong? please let me know,cheers

Offline peasea

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Re: Warning!This could be you!
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2010, 12:11:20 PM »
Thunderhead

I understand your confusion ,the next generation of plumbers and gas fitters will need to be a lot more savvy as far as technical requirements are concerned , I think the associated electrical component should now be part of a plumbing and gasfitting training as more and more we are seeing boilers and hotwater situations where a plumber gasfitter needs knowledge on how they work and be able to service them , we do a number of jobs now where one boiler is all that is required for underfloor radiators and hotwater combined quite often with solar and wetback so a good understanding of how all this operates together will be essential in the future. Robbo I dont see any problem with what you are doing , but I would also remove the fuse as well and confirm that the electricity is disconnected , all plumbers gas fitters should have a mutimeter and know how to use it


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