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Author Topic: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014  (Read 3589 times)

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Offline Wal

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Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« on: April 04, 2014, 06:24:18 AM »
The Board may put a spin on the truth but the figures don't lie.

The proposed qualifications for Plumbing Gasfitting and Drainlaying. Is it just another bandaid on a failing system?  Should we accept them just to full the gap or should we wait and get it right?


Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/fellow-practitioners-update/41/fellow-practitioner-issue-200-dated-4-april-2014/1655/

Offline bowtieboy

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2014, 08:01:37 AM »
The board in the last 2 days has sent out to the ta's the list of paid up certifying/registered plumbers and drain-layers, in our area there is every few currently licensed  !!  ??? ??? ???
I believe in doing a job once and right. !

Offline Backflow

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2014, 10:26:47 AM »
Hi Wal,

Don't mean to criticise but the basic qualification issues you've identified are not different to what they're doing now are they as far as usefulness goes? The supervision stuff is a board requirement outside of the qualifications.

The main two things different are the exam at level 4 and the new level 3?

I don't have a problem with the level 3. People still have to adhere to the law after getting it and it could help with getting an apprenticeship. Polytechs run pre-trade course already, this just ensures they'll be consistent as at the moment they all do their own thing with no benchmark which the qual would be.

I don't see a problem with the exam in level 4. They have to do it now, just separate. At the moment we could have guys with their level 4 but no exam pass. At least if they get the new qual you can be satisfied they've met all the requirements.

I agree inconsistent delivery is a problem but thats for someone to moderate the polyptychs not an issue with the qualification.

Offline Backflow

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2014, 11:04:37 AM »
Have to admit, I personally think you should either be qualified or not. I don't see the purpose of the licenced class. Electricians get by with only one class, why couldn't we?

Offline aboutgas

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2014, 04:41:14 PM »
Have to admit, I personally think you should either be qualified or not. I don't see the purpose of the licenced class. Electricians get by with only one class, why couldn't we?


Does any one know of any other country where they have 2 levels of qualification in the plumbing and gas industry's?
Unless the moral improves the floggings will continue

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2014, 08:06:51 PM »
Backflow you make some considered comments there.  You have obviously thought this through and it is true the basic quals haven't changed that much - but I think that is the point the Federation is making - do we want more of the same?  I'm not thrilled with a one year pre-trade - it's too long - and it is tempting for those that have done it to a)  have a go at doing it without following through  b) some unscrupulous employers will employ Level 3 graduates with the promise of an apprenticeship and not deliver.  I favour a longer apprenticeship and coming out fully qualified.  I'm glad the exam is encapsulated in the apprenticeship because it means the costs will be too, and they can't get National Certificate without being fully qualified (albeit it I wish they did another 2000 hours and came out absolutely qualified at the equivalent of certifying level).  Your comment that people have to adhere to the law is true, but what they should do and what they actually do are two different things.  We have had a one year pre-trade in our area and also a 6 month and 3 month one.  I favoured the 3 month one as it taught them just enough to know the terminology, just enough to get to know the potential trainee through work experience, but not enough to form bad habits, nor habits that we didn't like.  The 6 month one has eaten into the apprenticeship so that our lads have already done most of the first 3 block courses bar abour 4 unit standards, and the one year one saw the black market grow.  The success in terms of numbers gaining apprenticeships is unknown as the techs don't seem to record those stats.

The delivery is the key to the success of this qualification - teaching needs to come back into the block course scenario, or night school system.  It shouldn't be all about assessment.  The delivery is as important as the qualification.  Unfortunately I'm not 100% convinced that Skills appreciate where practitioners are coming from - more contestability amongst service providers would help - and ensure we get good value for money.

Of course at the end of the exam and qualification the COST of getting registered is still going to be a barrier to entry - and that is something all employers of apprentices need to keep in mind.
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline Wal

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2014, 07:04:59 AM »
Hi Backflow and everyone
I think you summed it up in your second reply Backflow where you stated “Have to admit, I personally think you should either be qualified or not. I don't see the purpose of the licensed class. Electricians get by with only one class, why couldn't we?” But here we are being asked to support a qualification that we don’t agree with. We were told early on in the process by Skills that they couldn’t alter the registration as that is up to the Board. The Federation asked for a meeting with the Board to instigate that consultation with the industry and have been scheduled for the middle of this year to meet with them.
The proposed qualification simply falls into line with the Boards Registration.  We have no doubt the content of the qualifications combined go a long way to being what is needed to create a suitably qualified tradesperson but seven years to achieve that is a joke.  The ITOs have failed us in the past to such an extent that now they only provide assessments and their so called training is directed at getting people to pass those assessments not at becoming the much needed competent trade’s people.
These qualifications again are left open to interpretation by the ITO and training provider. We feel there should be more defined stipulation in the qualification in what skills must be taught as “hands on” skills by the training providers.
If the PGDB was to consult on the registration regime and it was changed what would be the use of these qualifications?  We would yet again be left with something that is not suitable. As the qualification is dependent on the registration regime then that is where the process should have started.
With regard to the pre-trade/level 3 it may have its uses but only if we are producing numbers of people who are suitable to go into apprenticeships and it the apprenticeships are available. I would suggest people are paying to attend a course with the expectation that they will get an apprenticeship where that is not always the case.
The industry does need good qualifications that are designed for the industry not for the ITO and training providers. You could ask the question of how much money supplied by the Government to train apprentices actually gets to that training. Look at the current licensing statistics for Licensed Plumbers where there are 4348 that are registered and only 470 have licensed so far this year. Thats 89.19% of the people the government have pumped money into for training are not legally applying their skills to that trade. Licensed Gasfitters are similar where there are 2526 registered and only 225 have licensed so far this year, 91.09%.
The qualification and registration regimes are failing the country. 

Offline robbo

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2014, 09:37:14 AM »

hi guys, totally agree Wal  `But here we are being asked to support a qualification that we don’t agree with' are we really being asked or are we being told ?as the way it usually works is that our being asked is the board dictating to us i don't see anything changing until the board is replaced with something that listens to reason instead of being a money grabbing bully, cheers 

Offline integrated

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2014, 10:39:29 AM »
The Plumbers, Gasfitters & Drainlayers Board - modern day terms = BLOATWARE

Offline Backflow

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2014, 11:17:58 AM »
I've read through all the info they've provided and I can't see much missing from the qualifications. On paper if a person can do everything that is required they should be a decent plumber. I've never looked back at what the qualifications were like in my day. I'm assuming this should be better. If not what should we be asking for in the new ones?

Offline Backflow

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 11:19:43 AM »
Who is the stakeholders they've been working with? Is this the Master Plumbers?

http://skills.org.nz/latest-news-4/latest-news/#s6312

Offline bones

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Re: Fellow Practitioner Issue 200 Dated 4 April 2014
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 02:21:47 PM »
It would be interesting to know how many certifying plumbers are still on the tools. I remember reading that the average age of a certifying plumber in nz was 54, that was a few years ago now. I would also like to know how many certifiers are registered and LICENSED. Apparently you can just apply for your registration and not be licensed. This is an option if you are not a practicing plumber.  Also if you are not licensed, can you use your certifying ticket to sign off other reg plumbers. Seems bloody wrong to me that a certifier working in a teaching roll or, lets say, on the pgdb may only have to pay a registration fee, no disciplinary or licence fee.  Does this mean that an 80yr old plumber can sign off a reg plumber?. Does this group of certifiers have to do cpd points?. Thank god the registered plumbers are out there paying for all this. Please inform me if im right or wrong here. thanks.


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