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Author Topic: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?  (Read 20986 times)

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Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 01:44:30 PM »
There is some merit in your comments Robbo, but do you remember how long you had to wait for gas inspectors.  They didn't come from the Council, they came from the gas companies.  You would ring them and get them to send out an inspector.  I don't think the councils ever had gas inspectors.  Self certification has made it easier time wise to process jobs and not spend time sitting waiting for an inspector to come.  With the de regulation of the gas industry - the gas retailers wouldn't want the responsibility and I can't imagine the network owner being prepared to do it becasue then the homeowner/business owner could come back at them from main to flame if anything went wrong.

I am against self certification for plumbing for the very reasons you say about gas - however I can't see the system being wound back for gasfitting now, given that the energy companies are deregulated and I don't think gasfitters would accept young whipper snapper inspectors doing gas from the council like some of them inspect plumbing and drainage.  You would have to be a certifying/craftsman gasfitter to have any sort of mana with the practitioners.
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline robbo

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2011, 01:59:39 PM »
yes jax, you would have to make an appointment but that should not be to difficult, the company boss could just make a day to have inspections on all the jobs done that week. We will have to wait for those who get paid much more and obviously know more than us to make the difficult decisions for us.
 I don`t see why the council could not have inspectors, guys like the audit people would be able to do it and every job would be inspected not just a couple here and there, how many problems are there just waiting to come to the surface just because they were not inspected? cheers 

Offline robbo

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2011, 02:02:55 PM »
hi guys, this is the ruling on 15kg or less installations:-
 Since 1 April 2010, with the introduction of the new Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Act, all small installations are now considered to be gasfitting work and this work can only be undertaken by people authorized by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board.

“Under the Gas (Safety and Measurement) Regulations, which came into effect on 4 May 2010, this type of work remains exempt from requiring a gas compliance certificate to be issued to the owner by a suitably qualified person.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2011, 05:32:24 PM »
Good afternoon

Cabinet agreed on 30 May 2011 to streamline the current certification regimes for gas and electrical installation work. Further information is available at:  http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/templates/StandardSummary____45632.aspx
If you have any questions or concerns about the changes, to the gas and electrical certification regimes, please contact me so we can discuss them.
Changes

There is a two year timeframe to implement the changes to the certification regime, which are mostly administrative:

•         The certificate of compliance will become a ‘record of installation’ which records safety and testing information as required in regulations. The record will contain standardised information but can be on an invoice or a separate form, giving tradespeople more flexibility in their business practices
•         All gas installations, with no exemptions,  and all prescribed electrical work will require a record of installation, which must be kept for seven years
•         No more fees for the sale of certificates, resulting in greater clarity on invoices for work performed
•         Consumers (customers) will still receive a copy of the record of installation
•         Records will be required upon request by an authorised party (such as a government agency or energy supplier)
•         Tradespeople will be able to issue a retrospective record of installation (useful for insurance, home sales, and similar purposes)
•         High-risk installation work will be required to be reported to the Ministry of Economic Development as specified in the forthcoming regulations.

The changes to the certification regime will improve the coverage of, and consistency between, gas and electrical requirements and provide flexible administration for tradespeople.  The current record of work and protection of tradespeople for the work they perform continues although the burden of certification administration has been moved from the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Boards and the Electrical Workers Registration Board so they can focus on tradesperson competency.  In addition, there will be some savings for consumers.
Research
A summary of the submissions on the Gas and Electrical Certification and fees Review Discussion Document will be published on the Energy Safety website by July 2011.
Next steps
Key stakeholders will be consulted during the development of the drafting instructions that will be issued to the Parliamentary Counsel Office to draft regulations to give effect to the changes.  The Certification Review Project Team has been authorised by Cabinet to release exposure drafts of the proposed amendments to the certification regime in the gas regulations and the electricity regulations to key industry stakeholders for consideration of detailed technical wording.  We expect this consultation will occur during the last quarter of 2011.
Again, if you have any questions or concerns about the changes to the gas and electrical certification regimes please contact me so we can discuss them.
Thank you for participating in the Certification Review by making submissions, attending stakeholder workshops and making your views known to us by email and/ or in meetings.  We appreciate the time this has taken and your interest in the Review.
Regards
Judith
Judith Burney l Senior Policy Analyst l Energy Safety l Ministry of Economic Development l
Direct Dial:  +64 4 474 2651
33 Bowen Street l PO Box 1473 l Wellington l New Zealand
 


Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2011, 05:36:41 PM »
Well there it is everyone in black and white.  What do you think?  Does this open the floodgates for the cowboys in the gas industry (or more rightly, the cowboys on the fringes of the industry) to do work without fear of detection.  Will gasfitters now have to prove they didn't do a job rather than they did?  Who would ever want to issue a retrospective Record of Installation?  How will the PGDB keep a record of who did what work and make sure they prosecute the right person.  Will a digital camera and a copy of the day's Dominion be a necessary tool in a gasfitters arsenal so they can hold up the paper and take the picture of the installation to prove what they did and the day the did it. 

How will it save the consumer money?  Will we still charge to test, commission and furnish a Record of Installation?  Is there merit in looking to get a voluntary scheme up and running?  What will happen in the intervening two years until this system comes in?  What do you think insurance companies will make of this?  All of this based on 39 submissions!!!  39!!!!!  How many actual practitioners filled in a submission?  Did any of you?  And if you did, what did you tell them?  Did you even know this was happening?????


Offline aboutgas

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2011, 09:01:31 PM »
Hi Jax /Guys What will be the point in getting your certifying licence see below a quote from the question and answer page of the link on Jax's post >:( >:( >:( >:(


Who is responsible for ensuring work meets regulations and standards?
 
The gasfitter or electrical worker who performs the work must ensure it meets regulatory requirements and complies with relevant standards.   ??? ??? I waz never there I waz over ére :-X :-X

Who is responsible for attestation (on the record of installation)?
 
The gasfitter or electrical worker performing or supervising the work will be the person who attests to the safety and compliance of the installation.Employers may provide the attestation instead of the individual tradesperson,[/u] as long as appropriate supporting documentation exists.

Yer right what a load of bulls**t  >:( >:(


Welcome to cowboy heaven

"I was never there prove I was" Will become the standard answer 
Unless the moral improves the floggings will continue

Offline aboutgas

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2011, 09:18:10 PM »
Hi all if anybody has the inclination to email the CLOWNS who ratified this policy here are the two email addresses

h.parata@ministers.govt.nz <h.parata@ministers.govt.nz> Hekia Parata

m.williamson@ministers.govt.nz <m.williamson@ministers.govt.nz> Maurice Williamson


Offline robbo

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2011, 10:34:58 PM »
hi guys,so is it carry on as usual until 2013?

Offline robbo

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2011, 10:55:05 PM »
hi guys, at least it will take the certification away from the board,perhaps they will be able to lay a few people off now and reduce the cost of registraton,cheers

Offline robbo

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2011, 11:11:35 PM »
hi guys/aboutgas, it does`nt mean that you no longer need to be qualified,it will be easy to see who did the job as someone has to present an account and someone has to get paid, it just means that the the person who owns the company(in lots of cases not a gasfitter)and who quotes/supplies the materials at retail prices/and is making the profit, also takes responsibility as they do for plumbing,cheers   

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2011, 08:47:11 AM »
It is carry on as usual until 2013 - but I believe it is a backwards step.  At the moment you can't even buy gas certs unless you are a certifying gasfitter - this gives some measure of safety to the home or business owner.  I am concerned about following others into a home where they have done gasfitting - how will I be able to check what work has been done by others and when - at the moment any address we are called into can be checked for prior work.  Our serviceman can check for certification on different appliances to ensure warranty conditions are met.  There will be inconsistencies galore on invoices.  As a company I think what we will do is reproduce a certificate very similar to the PGDB one and attach Apprendix O from 5261 to EVERY one of them and that will be our record of installation.  Gasfitters need to protect themselves and ensure they have a consistent approach to record keeping - it would be good for everyone to start now and be in the habit of it for 2013.  I am disappointed that there won't be a centralised system so every gasfitter can check for themselves about a property and the certificates that exist for it. 

How will the public know if someone is a licensed/certifying gasfitter if they don't know to check on thepgdb website.  Anyone can put results on an invoice - I firmly believe that this is a disaster.  Robbo you seem to think that employers don't look after their certifying gasfitters?  Certifiers should be paid for that level of responsibility - and I think that with this system it has the possibility of reducing their level of responsibility - it could result in no more than an employer type licence, which for individual tradesmen is bad becasue it prevents them being able to do any other work outside of what the employer sanctions and has approval for.

Offline robbo

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2011, 11:14:31 AM »
hi guys/jax, i do not dispute what you say i just think that the whole area of gasfitting has been over dramatised, a properly trained tradesman(not necessarily to certifying standard)will be able to carry out a top job with no problems, obviously as he gets more experience the confidence grows. I believe that the Board has successively frightened the public into believing that the use of gas is so dangerous and that they have to rule the installers of gas with an iron fist, it is my opinion that the Board has only reduced tradesman's confidence with threats and fines if a mistake is made to the extent that mistakes will happen, i am glad that some power has been taken away from the Board,cheers

Offline robbo

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2011, 11:38:29 AM »
hi guys, it will be interesting to hear the Master Plumbers spin on these latest developments, i can only imagine that they were instrumental in recomending the changes seeing as the minister takes so much notice of them, cheers

Offline TS

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2011, 05:44:00 PM »
What will the Board do now without the revenue stream that was the certificates? increase the disciplinary levy?

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: Is the Gas Certification scheme at risk?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2011, 05:49:34 PM »
I imagine they will increase the licence fee in two years to cover the lost revenue stream.  I think this was one area the PGDB did really well and I will be very sorry to see it go.  It worked, unlike the sparkies system where no certificates were filed.  Today alone I have searched for three gas certificates on the PGDB website - one for a warranty, one for a compliance issue and one for someone wanting to sell their property - none exist.  The owners are vague about who did the installations and can't remember the name of the supposed gasfitter.  This system will increase the confusion.

Do we want to go and certify these jobs for these customers?  No way!  So how will a record of installation assist this?  What we need to have done is educate the public about who is able to do gasfitting and plumbing and get rid of the cowboys who are doing this work, not certifying it and walking away with the cheque in their pocket and leaving customers potentially without insurance cover, and definitely without warranty cover.



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