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Author Topic: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years  (Read 8147 times)

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Offline jd24hrs

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Fiona doesn't like us because of the hard work done by Alan Wal Paul and all of us fellows around this country because we are showing them up and they get paid to look after there members and I have to say when I spoke to the master plumbers they were never interested in helping trainees or overseas plumbers. NO MONEY IN IT FOR THEM       JOHN TAUPO

Linkback: https://www.plumbers.nz/master-plumbers/66/fellow-practioners-have-done-more-in-3mths-than-masterplumbers-in-10years/498/

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 09:44:14 AM »
Fiona doesn't like us because of the hard work done by Alan Wal Paul and all of us fellows around this country because we are showing them up and they get paid to look after there members and I have to say when I spoke to the master plumbers they were never interested in helping trainees or overseas plumbers. NO MONEY IN IT FOR THEM       JOHN TAUPO

John I have to say you have missed the point.  Again referring to my comments in other threads - I refuse to personalise this and I think you trivialise it by referring to the CEO of Master Plumbers the way you have.  Master Plumbers has actually done a lot for trainees over the years - and they are very interested in helping them.  I can personally vouch for this as a member who has trainees and has received assistance.   It is not Master Plumbers job to assist overseas plumbers - you are right there is no money in it for them.  They are a MEMBERSHIP based organisation.  The members pay their subs and they undertake work that benefit their members.  I am not sure why you think Master Plumbers should assist overseas plumbers unless their own members want to employ them.  And remember that this is not "Fiona's" fault - she is the CEO, but policy and direction is set by her Board - who in turn are lead by their members.  I do think that practitioners have now reached their fill - and have had enough.  I believe we would like to see a far more militant approach taken with the PGDB and I also think we would like them to have to be fully accountable for their actions.  Any group who can achieve this deserves a gold medal!
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline peasea

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 04:37:02 PM »
Good response jaxcat , I also believe calmness and rationality will win in the end , I agree  practitioners have had enough of the nonsense thrown at us over at least the last 10 years , I must say Wal is to be congratulated for sticking with the issues , hopefully some common sense (dare I use those words ) will be forthcoming in the months ahead .

Just an aside , it will be interesting when the builders are subject to the requirements we are  , they will be a lot more vocal I believe . We have let the` board`get away with too much and they have believed they are the one who  have complete control .

We are already subject to the  building act, the gas act, the local authorities , the designers , the consultants , the consumer act and the client Ive probably missed a few , so why do the board think they are the be all and end all ?

Offline spud

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 09:06:23 AM »
Name one thing that the master plumbers have done for our trade other than feather their own nests? I dont believe that a course they run can possibly cost over $200 per head. Its a bloody joke.
Being a master plumber doesnt make you a better plumber than anyone else. The public thinks it does, but the public doesnt know the diffeerence between a master plumber or a craftsman plumber or a registered plumber.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 11:45:23 AM »
Name one thing that the master plumbers have done for our trade other than feather their own nests? I dont believe that a course they run can possibly cost over $200 per head. Its a bloody joke.
Worked with NZ Standards on standards for plumbing, gasfitting and drainlaying
Provided upskilling courses (and despite what you say about feathering their own nests - there are not that many courses available outside of MP - so they have put in an investment into our industry that others have not been willing to)
Ran the roadshow around NZ to inform ALL practitioners about the 2006 Act
Just a few things seeing as you asked.In so far as course costs go - the cost of getting a course written in the language that the ITO will approve and the PGDB will then allow on its website with points attached costs around $3k - $5k.  Of course the members would expect non members to pay more.  I don't believe MP will make money out of this.  The profits from the main centre courses will be offset by MP running courses in far flung places like Gisborne, Blenheim, Timaru, and other smaller areas where most presenters don't travel due to the high costs and low returns.  Overall non members will be subsidising members for attending - but if you belong to an organisation doesn't this happen everywhere.  You don't have to attend MP run courses - if you can get cheaper courses somewhere else then do them - but the fact is that MP is taking its role seriously and trying to cover  the whole geographic area - but they aren't going to do this for free.

Offline robbo

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 12:53:31 PM »
Provided upskilling courses (and despite what you say about feathering their own nests - there are not that many courses available outside of MP - so they have put in an investment into our industry that others have not been willing to)
hi guys,jax, if no one else was going to offer courses,then why did MPs not leave it alone so the whole thing could have been a non event? by offering these courses they have helped the board implement the rules that we as tradesmen do not want. As a matter of interest i did my own gas points through the open poly before i gave up on the system so as to be able to choose the time of working on them to suit me, without having to go to class room type situations at times that were not convenient, why could the MPs not set up correspondence or on-line courses which would be a much cheaper and time friendly option,after all the idea is about trade based information sharing not an examination of what we know,cheers

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 01:39:40 PM »
Hi Robbo

MP do have correspondence courses on 5261 (2 papers) I am not sure if there are correspondence courses for plumbing - possibly not at this time but I am sure they will come.  MP responded to member requests to run upskilling.  I am one of many members who asked for this so I could ensure it was easy to make sure my staff were all upskilled.  The fact is upskilling is required under the Act - if we didn't do it then we wouldn't get our licenses.  I understand the frustration - I really do - and I am not 100% in agreement with some of the courses on offer.  We do support the technical courses because quite simply - this is what will benefit my business.  Staff also attend other non technical courses as their role might require e.g. if they are foreman we might send them on a course for supervision, or an advanced site safe course - but only if they will add value to the business. 

The only way clear cut picture will emerge of what is legally required and what is not is, unfortunately, a legal case mounted against the PGDB.  This will require money from practitioners - a lot of money - and is the sole reason I believe why no challenge has been mounted previously as no one practitioner could afford to take on the PGDB with all its hundreds of thousands of dollars in reserve. 

I really appreciate this forum as a way to discuss ideas - everyone I think it on the same page - we just read the lines differently!

Offline spud

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 04:00:21 PM »
I dont agree. If there are no courses available then they cant make us upskill. If Master Plumbers hadnt taken it upon themselves to create courses then the PGDB would have to do it themselves and then we would all be paying the same rate for courses, not some plumbers subsidising others as is happening now.
Im not doing any Master Plumbers run courses they can go and get stuffed.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2010, 04:05:48 PM »
A1 that is your democratic choice.  I have absolutely no problems with that.  I just think that its a shame we are at each other's throats when the villan is the PGDB, not other practitioners.

Offline spud

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 04:18:24 PM »
This is how it is, and this is why im annoyed.
A month ago the master plumbers in christchurch organised a meeting with the Selwyn District Council so that they could explain some of their interpretations of the building code and how they would be inforcing them to canterbury plumbers. There were flyers up at Plumbing World advertising this event. I thought sweet I will go along and find out some good information. 2 hours before the event a member of the master plumbers rang me up and said I wasnt allowed to go because Im not a master plumber. Im not allowed to go into the Selwyn District Council and listen to things that are going to make me a better plumber? What the F**k?
I just couldnt believe this.
If Master Plumbers want to upskill their own members thats fine but there has to be other ways that everyone else can get upskilled as well without having to give Master Plumbers money.

Offline Jaxcat

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2010, 08:31:21 PM »
You know A1 - I think that is a great shame.  What an opportunity that was missed to get you along to the meeting and you may have been so impressed with what you saw and heard that you thought it might be of interest to join.  I am sorry that this was your experience - all I can do is assure you that this is not the way all Master Plumber Associations run.  Many would have welcomed you with open arms and used the opportunity to showcase what they do and perhaps eventually sign you up as a member once you had seen the benefits.


Offline spud

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Re: fellow practioners have done more in 3mths than masterplumbers in 10years
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2010, 08:41:31 PM »
It is a shame, and my opinion of the Canterbury Master PLumbers has been tarnished for sure. Maybe they would increase their numbers if they had an all encompassing approach that really showed a genuine concern for the industry and all the hardworking people in it rather than just their own members.
Why arent the master plumbers flexing some muscle regarding the ludicrous craftsman Common paper for example? There is only one reason for this...because they dont want too many people getting their craftsman ticket.
I have no problem with the exam being hard. It should be hard! plumbing is becoming an increasingly complex trade. But the exam must be relevant, and its not. Learning how to write sentences properly is fourth form english and learning how to heat and ventilate a room has nothing to do with plumbing what so ever. Its HVAC, which is a completely different trade. These are just two examples of the ridiculous topics that we have to learn about to pass this crazy exam.

I am absolutely dumbfounded by the inept, incompetent corruption of the people who run this trade, in all areas - the PGDB, the Master Plumbers, the Open Polytechnic and the ITO.

Offline jd24hrs

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IM STILL RIGHT.   IF THE MASTER PLUMBERS DIDN'T MAKE MONEY FROM THE MISFORTUNE OF THE REAL PLUMBERS OF THIS COUNTRY THEY WOULD JUST DISSAPEAR AND OF COURSE WE WOULD ALL BE HAPPY

BUT THEY LIKE TO SEE US ALL HURTING  BECAUSE IT MEANS DOLLARS  OH YES YOU CAN KEEP TELLING YOURSELVES THAT THEY CARE ABOUT OUR TRADE BUT DEEP DOWN YOU KNOW IT S-it so get a life we are still hurting and what have they done. NOTHING AS USAUL

Offline Jaxcat

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Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  I will put my hand up and say that membership of Master Plumbers has been a good thing for my business.  I have met many great practitioners through belonging and have learned a great deal that has aided me and my business.  We all belong to good and bad organisations and generally you get out of anything in equal measure to what you put in.  You can make a change in this world, or you can sit back and critisize those who try to.  Generally I believe most of the groups in this industry want to make a change - quite often the goal is common, the pathway to getting there is just different.  Master Plumbers is not for everyone - but it has been the only industry group up until the Federation formed that gave industry a practitioner voice, and that in itself is noteworthy.  If you don't like what MP stands for then you simply wouldn't join - end of story.  I really hope though that people make an "informed" choice i.e. you perhaps come along to an Association meeting or two and have a look to see if it is what you need. 

Offline Thunderhead

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"and learning how to heat and ventilate a room has nothing to do with plumbing what so ever. Its HVAC, which is a completely different trade."...Well said a1plumb...This is my view exactly...when we had to do technical drawing and the hvac transition pieces in sheet metal...i thought WTF has this to do with plumbing...absoutley nothing!...nothing but a waste of my brain power and time trying to remember something that i will never use AT ALL...i complained to a tutor asking what the hell are you doing teaching me this crap!...I deal with water and waste!...he reckoned some idiot with connections in the board who had a plumbing and hvac company pushed for this hvac crap as part of the unit standards we must pass in order to do pulmbing work....I spent more time at tech on roofing and sheetmetal and welding and hvac than i did on actual plumbing and real world plumbing situations

You know for Four years bloody schooling people should be comming out of tech bloody expert plumbers but because we have to learn friken stupid things like hvac,how to friken weld a 6mm tube...you have to have a ticket to weld correctly and to get insurrance cover!...yet they persist with this false world learning...if i did 4 years solid plumbing learning...then i would be upto play with these uv units and these undersink instant boiling units...

The whole NZQA unit standards for plumbing needs to be stripped back and re-assesed to give apprentises the most indepth knowledge they can in there CHOSEN field of work...i most definatly did not choose to become a competent HVAC installer...i chose to be the best plumber that i could and HVAC aint got nothing to do with that!.


And my father who once was a MP member warned me away from them cus he never got any benifits from all the fees he payed to them...and also he reckoned after speaking to one of there x legal team that MP's played a part in the reduclious past exams...based on the fact that if they made the exams too hard to pass it would help to keep there cheep labour workforce...or something like that...anyways i have a distrust of the MP assoiation as i would never want to work for an orgisination where you could not fault others work in the same orginisation...

But like jaxcat said every dog to there bone!


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