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Author Topic: Low pressure Weback Solar question  (Read 12243 times)

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Offline nimble

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Re: Low pressure Wetback Solar question
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 11:59:00 PM »
All fair enough points mate , video's definitely make you see why a plumber is required for this kind of install!!!
It looks like this was my mistake.... i thought part of this site was was for the public to get plumbing advice? To be honest it's kind of confusing
i partake in other forums some public some private. Are you saying that these forums are for the sole use of plumbers or not?

If the public are allowed here,  they must only  be here but to seek advice, gather information and become wiser :)

Anyways all this aside i should at least share what i have learnt in fact I'm worried now my tank is wrong.  I have drawn my custom made tank and attached it can  someone confirm it is a suitable configuration for a low pressure open vented system.

The reasons i chose the low pressure open vented system are:

Im on tank water without mains pressure
Much cheaper than closed loop systems
wetback and solar work together well to provide heating and hot water
very cheap to run if you have supply of wood
reliable

You all  have highlighted the potential dangers of a poorly designed system and importance
of a professional balanced installation. I would be interested to hear any other downsides to this type of installation.

I would also be interested in your opinions on which type of solar/wetback system you think is:
Best overall
Most cost effective
Safest

Obviously the downside will be water pressure. Does raising actually increase your pressure much?

Thanks for your Help and Concern










Offline Plumber

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2011, 03:03:35 PM »
Hi nimble

You are definitely right. Plumbers Forum is designed for Tradesmen to interact and share knowledge but also a place for the public to turn to for advice. No one is trying to prevent you from becoming wiser (I beleive the cold war is over), there is only a concern about the nature of the job. And honestly I can understand Thunderheads criticism due to this fact.

Your hot water cylinder.  Who designed it and who built it? Because you state it was custom made, a HWC must comply to G12 and engineers specifications also 2712 Standard code in NZ. The element and thermostat must be at a height specified by the code to suit application, Tank must have a biosafe etc.. These are only a few things you need to be aware of. Im sure you know these things already but there are only a hand full of tank manufacturers in NZ that custom make these tanks to the standard.  

No there are no disadvantages with low pressure. In fact you save water, your tank lives longer and being open vented no issues with valves and maintenance. Correctly installed its also safer then mains. Combination Wetback / Solar makes it cheap to run. I personally have one and I love it.
There is more concern in the state the Cylinder is installed, being horizontal (or @ 20 deg) your layers of heat (stratification) are much closer to each other then they would be being vertical hence less efficient, other nuisances such as hot/cold water patches could occur when showering, so even more important make sure you have a diffuser on your returns.

All your Solar / Wetback and cold come in through one end, I assume the thermostat is also on that side, that's where there is a downside of having everything open , when your showering you will introduce cold water into the tank and your probe / thermostat could get a wrong reading and end up switching on your element even though there is enough hot water in the tank available.

another thing you need to be aware of is filtration. Being on tank water means a lot of debris will get pumped into the tank. This will damage your wetback (usually steel heat exchanger) and your solar panels.  Also looking at the angle of your HWC most of it will end up slugging in the bottom corner of the tank, not really good.

My personal favourite is a Mains Pressure tank for Domestic supply, two coils, one for Solar and another designed for wetback. Wetback connected as low pressure. Glycol on both indirect wetback and Solar installations. It's more efficient and I protect my panels and wetback long term.  The water will also taste better  :P Merto Wetbacks is what I recommend my clients.

Hope this helps. Once your finished please let us know how efficient the system is. I'm very keen to find out.

Regards Plumber
Please note that the advice I am giving is only my opinion and not necessarily a fact.  Please refer to our terms and conditions.

Offline nimble

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2011, 02:21:07 AM »
Thanks Plumber, proper discussion and good advice!!!!!!!!!!

 
Who designed it and who built it?
Paid $1200 to a local importer of solar panels. He designed it and had it manufactured in the south Island.

Our low ceiling height would only allow for much smaller vertical tank.   I really wanted at least 200L i thought  it makes sense
that with a large insulated tank I can store more energy for cloudy days in the summer or warmer days in the winter.

All your Solar / Wetback and cold come in through one end, I assume the thermostat is also on that side

I think this is marked on the Diagram as  pocket probe?? port located at the end with most the feeds.
Is it possible o have a longer probe thermometer...would this make a difference?


thermostat could get a wrong reading and end up switching on your element


The diagram doesn't show actual angle my  tank. It's much more than 20 deg i will measure tomorrow.
I'm hoping controlling the power supply with a timer will give me some control over when the element can operate.Is this a practical approach?


another thing you need to be aware of is filtration
I have looked a a few things that will hopefully help.
Tipper on end of spouting to catch sediment.
Wire along the pitch of my roof to annoy birds.
I'm unsure on this piece of advice????? Limestone in the bottom of my main tank to neutralise acid rain and extend the life of my tank??

Ultimately  would I want some kind of micro particle filter? These are expensive!!! Is there any more simple or cheaper alternatives??? Some kind inline filter that can be cleaned changed manually? How much do filter systems cost?

Also looking at the angle of your HWC most of it will end up slugging in the bottom corner of the tank, not really good.

This does concern me but i guess this can happen to a vertical system too over a long period of time. It's my understanding that this system is relatively safe as it is vented under  low pressure in a relatively strong cylinder.

As i have explained i will be having this installed  by a professional.......  i also like the metro wetbacks they seem very good value. I only have 1.7 Hectares (not 2) so i beleive unless my wood burner has an oven too i will be limited to by the enviromental laws as to which fireplace i am allowed Is there any way around this it seems unfair since the fireplace will be multi purpose and i am planting a sustainable wood source.
I am planning to plant and already cutting down Eucalytus.  I beleive properly dried this is a nice source of fuel.

your opinions much appreciated









Offline Plumber

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2011, 08:51:38 PM »
Not a problem nimble,

Paid $1200 to a local importer of solar panels. He designed it and had it manufactured in the south Island.
Our low ceiling height would only allow for much smaller vertical tank.   I really wanted at least 200L i thought  it makes sense
that with a large insulated tank I can store more energy for cloudy days in the summer or warmer days in the winter.


Ok, im guessing it was SH in the south Island. I hope so anyway they are reliable. The bigger the better, your right.

I think this is marked on the Diagram as  pocket probe?? port located at the end with most the feeds.
Is it possible o have a longer probe thermometer...would this make a difference?


The pocket probe is not the thermostat. The probe controls the solar heating system and the solar heating controler then controls the element. Every HWC is also manufactored with an additional thermostat and Bio Safe.

The diagram doesn't show actual angle my  tank. It's much more than 20 deg i will measure tomorrow.
I'm hoping controlling the power supply with a timer will give me some control over when the element can operate. Is this a practical approach?


Not the Ideal solution but that will work to an extent.

I have looked a a few things that will hopefully help. Tipper on end of spouting to catch sediment. Wire along the pitch of my roof to annoy birds.
I'm unsure on this piece of advice?? Limestone in the bottom of my main tank to neutralise acid rain and extend the life of my tank??
Ultimately  would I want some kind of micro particle filter? These are expensive!!! Is there any more simple or cheaper alternatives??? Some kind inline filter that can be cleaned changed manually? How much do filter systems cost?


Have a look at your foot valve in the tank that should have a strainer with at least 50 microns.  All the above mentioned will help but you will still need a 10 - 20 micron strainer on your pump outlet. Cant think of the manufacturer at the moment but there is an outfit in Albany Auckland that does them in a cartridge form. They are not expansive and work well on pumps. Best ask your local merchant. If I can remember the name I will post it here.  cost somewhere between $150 - $250 by memory, its been a while.

This does concern me but i guess this can happen to a vertical system too over a long period of time. It's my understanding that this system is relatively safe as it is vented under  low pressure in a relatively strong cylinder.
As i have explained i will be having this installed  by a professional.......  i also like the metro wetbacks they seem very good value. I only have 1.7 Hectares (not 2) so i beleive unless my wood burner has an oven too i will be limited to by the environmental laws as to which fireplace i am allowed Is there any way around this it seems unfair since the fireplace will be multi purpose and i am planting a sustainable wood source.
I am planning to plant and already cutting down Eucalytus.  I beleive properly dried this is a nice source of fuel.


Once your water is filtered properly there should be less concern, I would still flush it out once a year or so depending on water quality.  Yes  "environmental laws" we love them don't we? I think I will leave it at that.

Will try to post the name soon.

Plumber

Offline nimble

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 11:11:33 PM »
Cheers Plumber.  I feel more confident now i am on my way down the right path and know enough myself to make sure i find a good plumber.

I spose it's good news that the pocket probe isn't the thermostat and the tank was probably made by a reputable company.  Then hopefully the Thermostat is in more a sensible position  considering the tank was produced to be a horizontal tank.

Is the $200 cartridge a consumable item?? If so how often will it need replacing??

Also when you say diffusers will be important ...Do these diffuse the hotwater going back into the tank more evenly so they dont stir it up too much. Why is this important?


When you say flush out the system, Is this done chemically or by just draining down the system. Is there need for some kind of valve or tap to drain the system down or is just turning on all your hot taps the quickest way?

Cheers plumber.....Is it ok if i post some links to some sources of information and documents i have found useful along the way?









Offline nimble

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2011, 10:53:21 AM »
Hey Plumber

I got a reply from who i bought the cylinder from. It was manufactured by Superheat and the thermostat is located as per the diagram. Does this make a difference??

Offline Plumber

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2011, 01:31:23 PM »
hi nimble,

Superheat are brilliant, marine grade Stainless and they put the diffuser on the return for you. That's great! Thermostat also in the right place cant complain.

Yes your right, if you stir up your layers of heat you will have a less efficient system and also get cold patches while showering.

The cartridges are washable, Monday when I'm back at the office ill look up the details for you and post them here.

By flushing out I mean simply clean out your wetback and panels by completely draining the water out of the system twice. You will be surprised how filthy water can get. When installing the system try not to create any water traps, that's logical on the wetback  ;D. Also don't forget a drainpoint on the wet back return, many forget that.

Would be great if you could post any details, cheers


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Offline Plumber

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2011, 04:30:36 PM »
Found those details:

Hydroflow DistributorsHydroflow Distributors
221 Bush Road Auckland 0632 - (09) 415 5585
Open Weekdays 8am-5pm

The product I used a few years back is IF25RD comes with different microns as a cartridge.

Hope this helps

Plumber

Offline nimble

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2011, 11:07:25 PM »
Thanks very much mate. You have been such a huge help.
Today panned out as expected, met with plumber to get a quote for the install.
He's trying to tell me diffusers are just a gimmick and i wont need them...so frustrating.
This is exactly why i came here cause as i pointed out to members of your board that it's hard to get good advice.
Just contacting a registered plumber doesn't always mean you get the best advice. Thanks to the forum i'm now an
informed customer that is still going to pay a plumber for his work...win/win
Thanks again

Offline Plumber

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Re: Low pressure Weback Solar question
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2011, 11:30:18 PM »
Always our pleasure nimble and all the best..  :D


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